what do you-all think about bye bye centos and filepro

[Microlite filePro Mail List]

> I wouldn't do a new CentOS 8 installation without a clear indication
> that my intended target will -definitely- have a single-command
> migration.  I'm going to have to disagree on the new installs bit.

Ok by me. That's what opinions are all about. I agree with some of what you say, but I'll push back on a few things.

> I'm in no hurry to finalise a jump of my own C8 server to Oracle.  I'm
> waiting to see if Rocky has a single-command migration.  Cloud does, but
> they appear to be subscription-only, which...no.  Just no
...
> Cloud claims to as well, but again...subscription?  Two words:  Fuck that.

What does CloudLinux's subscription product have to do with their stated position, which was my reference point?

"As we already maintain CloudLinux OS, we plan to release a free, open-sourced, community-driven, 1:1 binary compatible fork of RHEL® 8 (and future releases) in the Q1 of 2021. We will create a separate, totally free OS that is fully binary compatible with RHEL® 8 (and future versions). We will sponsor the development & maintenance of such OS. We will work on establishing a community around the OS, with the governing board from members of the community."

That's pretty clear, and actually contains more of a timeline estimate than Rocky Linux does not at this point.

> And I've no love for Oracle as a company.  Look at
> the Java nightmare, just for a start...

I have no great love for Oracle, either. But that doesn't mean that Oracle Linux Server isn't a great product, and worthy of respect and a close look. I didn't care for some Chevy models, nor the way GM handled the ignition switch debacle as a corporation, but my 2005 Avalanche was the best, most versatile vehicle I've ever owned. I miss it.


My opinions are just that; responses when asked based on my experience. It is entirely ok to disagree, but more helpful dialog ensues when the same actual facts are in play.

> They (Red Hat) and CentOS just screwed over thousands
> of people and companies by breaking their word nine years early.  That
> is not the basis for a future relationship. 

Now that is something we are in complete agreement on. Which is a very good way to end an email.

Cheers!
Tom Podnar
Microlite Corporation


----- Original Message -----
From: "Fairlight via Filepro-list" <filepro-list at lists.celestial.com>
To: filepro-list at lists.celestial.com
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 5:17:27 PM
Subject: Re: what do you-all think about bye bye centos and filepro

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 04:37:33PM -0500, Microlite filePro Mail List via
Filepro-list thus spoke:
> Hmmm.  Well, after getting over the outrage, and maybe letting a little
> fear subside, here is my opinion...
>
> If you have time and money invested into CentOS 8, just keep going. Even
> for new installs.

I wouldn't do a new CentOS 8 installation without a clear indication
that my intended target will -definitely- have a single-command
migration.  I'm going to have to disagree on the new installs bit.

I'm in no hurry to finalise a jump of my own C8 server to Oracle.  I'm
waiting to see if Rocky has a single-command migration.  Cloud does, but
they appear to be subscription-only, which...no.  Just no.

> First, you have at least another year to stay with CentOS while they
> support things just the way they have.  Second, CentOS 8 is quite solid.

No arguments, although there is a perl module conflict in EPEL which
I've been working around for half a year now.  :/  That's the only real
flaw I've encountered, and I run a lot of stuff on mine.

> Third, the Linux business is kind of self-healing. We already have close
> solutions that require no re-training, and during the next year more
> solutions will pop up.

Well, if there are too many compensating distros popping up, it's going
to self-correct again, just like when we had upwards of 100 distros.

> We know about Oracle Linux. They designed it to be "Red Hat Enterprise
> Linux, but we charge less for support if you want it".  So besides
> being enterprise-class, you don't have to choose between the "supported
> or unsupported" path and install separate distributions. You have one
> distribution and can either get support or not get support. You also get
> the "Unbreakable Enterprise Kernel" (exercise for the reader) if you want
> to boot it.

Honestly, I'd rather have elrepo's kernels, unless I'm going to use
ksplice.  And ksplice...hot swappable kernels is a great concept, but
how they achieved it incurs a performance hit.  You'd only -really- want
to use it for critical day zero security updates.  It basically rewrites
the in-memory pointers to the new kernel's functions, but it's kind of
like inode redirects in that it's not going to be as efficient as the
non-swapped kernel.

> Oracle already has an easy Migration tool (just a script) to get from
> CentOS 6 or CentOS 7 to Oracle Linux Server 6 or 7. I imagine they are
> hustling to get it ready for 8.  Oracle has a full development team
> (paid) and released Oracle Linux Server 8.3 a full month before CentOS
> 8.3-2011.

Cloud claims to as well, but again...subscription?  Two words:  Fuck that.

> Rocky Linux is only the first result of the outrage. The original CentOS
> founder starting over (well, the living one). Want to bet he gets a nice
> team of volunteers to do it right? Lots of people are pushing back at
> what I call the "IBM Effect"). He has a year to get it right, and I'd bet
> folding money his first project will either have a script similar to the
> Oracle script for conversion or just an ISO image (DVD) that updates and
> converts automatically.

It's like BSG...  "All of this has happened before, and all of this will
happen again."  Look at the RH9 -> RHEL era.

> Rocky Linux won't be alone as a newly-founded RHEL substitute. Cloud
> Linux has announced a project. Springdale Linux is out there. More may
> come.

Yes, but Rocky's founder at least has a feather in his cap and is known
to have the capacity for getting it done correctly.  I'll put a few
extra points of merit on that, compared to some of these other
off-brand efforts.  And I've no love for Oracle as a company.  Look at
the Java nightmare, just for a start...

> So me, I'm just going to tool along with CentOS 8 until a better pathways
> opens. We use and support Oracle, SUSE and Ubuntu here at Microlite, and
> we have developer's Red Hat Enterprise Linux licenses, but CentOS remains
> our go-to Linux for new projects.

I have 3/4 of a year to decide what I'm going to do for my own server.
That will coast until Rocky materialises, which will hopefully be a Q1 2021
effort.

Some places need new installations -now-.  Those are other kettles of
fish, and I would never recommend someone put a customer on a
short-lifespan installation without a clear migration path forward.  Not
when you have a chance to make the right choice up-front.  Certainly not
without at least testing the single-command migration's results.

> So don't sweat it. The community will figure it out. There is no hurry to
> make an immediate right-or-left turn or have to re-train yourself.

Actually, some places have logistical reasons for being in a hurry.
CentOS 6 just went EOL at the end of November, C8 was the logical target
replacement, and they were trying to migrate upwards.  And then this
bullshit happened, upsetting everyone's plans.

Not everyone has the luxury of sitting back and relaxing.

No, this was a really bad call, with some nasty real-world, financial
consequences following in its wake.  If you don't run whole clusters of
machines, you won't necessarily get just how impactful it is.

Also...sod RH themselves.  If they thought this would drive people into
RHEL's arms, they're insane.  They and CentOS just screwed over thousands
of people and companies by breaking their word nine years early.  That
is not the basis for a future relationship.  Happy to use their tech
downstream, but as a corporate entity they are dead to me if I'm paying the
bills.  If someone else is paying, be it on their own head.  RH support has
never been able to one-up my own ability to fix things anyway.  In fact,
I've been able to diagnose things they couldn't, and they even managed to
break Perl for about 3/4 of one release's lifespan.  Perl should never be
broken like they built that version.

> Have a Merry Christmas, everyone.  Tom Podnar Microlite Corporation

And you!

mark->
-- 
Fairlight Consulting
http://www.fairlite.com
fairlite at fairlite.com
(502) 509-3840
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