Cloud Computing, site monitoring and Internet Services in general
Steve Parker
sparker at abccompuserve.com
Fri Aug 13 06:47:43 PDT 2010
-----Original Message-----
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: OT: Cloud Computing security issues (Bill Campbell)
2. RE: Cloud Computing security issues (John Esak)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 11:32:15 -0700
From: Bill Campbell <bill at celestial.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Cloud Computing security issues
To: filepro-list at lists.celestial.com
Message-ID: <20100812183215.GA27656 at ayn.mi.celestial.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010, Richard Kreiss wrote:
>I am sure some of you have already seen this but thought for those that
>haven't, it would be enlightening
>
>Jurisdiction and the Cloud
>Moving data to the cloud could cause some law enforcement headaches.
Headaches for ``law'' enforcement may be a good thing. Google
``three felonies a day'' or read some of William Grigg's articles
on Lew Rockwell.com see how far the U.S. has gotten from the Rule
of Law:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w142.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-arch.html
On the other hand, I have serious reservations about cloud
computing in general for several reasons relating to reliability,
security, and control.
The most recent experience I had was a week or so ago when were
experimenting with a CentOS 5.x system on Godaddy that was to be
used as a border MX server doing initial spam and anti-virus
checking before forwarding clean messages to one or more SMTP
servers via secure connections for delivery.
The first problem I ran into was that godaddy didn't permit
outgoing SMTP on port 25, and their support people didn't
understand that this was basic to operations, saying something
like ``use http, smtp is an obsolete protocol''. We never could
find anybody in their ``support'' department with a clue. Of
course there are ways around the delivery problems, but not
around the communications problems in meatspace.
After getting everything configured to my liking so the cloude
machine was virtually identical in software to our regular
systems, there was a severe performance problem. Simply typing
``ls -l /root'' took a while. Stopping and restarting postfix
took almost a minute.
The final straw was when I got an alert here saying that the
machine seemed to be off-line, and found that godaddy had
rebooted the system, and done a ``chmod -x'' on several server
programs *WITHOUT CONTACTING US*!!! This rendered most of our
software, including the security and testing systems unusable.
They said finally that they thought our system was causing a high
load on the server hosting it.
Fortunately we weren't using this system for real work because of
the performance problems, but imagine what would happen to a
business if running mission-critical applications in the cloud.
Entrusting mission-critical applications to a third party that
may prove incompetent, arbitrary, or just plain go out of
buxiness without warning seems to me be a Really Bad Idea(tm).
Bill
--
INTERNET: bill at celestial.com Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC
URL: http://www.celestial.com/ PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way
Voice: (206) 236-1676 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820
Fax: (206) 232-9186 Skype: jwccsllc (206) 855-5792
The tyrant who impoverishes the citizens is obliged to make war
in order to keep his subjects occupied and impose on them the
permanent need of a chief. -- Aristotle
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 20:02:26 -0400
From: "John Esak" <john at valar.com>
Subject: RE: Cloud Computing security issues
To: <filepro-list at lists.celestial.com>
Message-ID: <201008130002.o7D02p3w061706 at admin114.securesites.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
So now I know why my parents and everyone was always telling me to get my
head out of the cloueds... :-)
This is the same sort of jurusdictional hassle they've always had with
taxes, tarriffs, royalties, etc., when worked through the net. If you buy
something digital from a company based in California and you are in New
Jersey, and thing you're buying comes from England... ??? It's all been
gone over and over for decades, but I'm willing to bet millions, maybe
billions of dollars are misdirected/uncollected/unknown.
By the way, I hate to say it, but once in awhile you hear something from an
otherwise reputable source and yet is just doesn't ring true. One of the
statements in this little cloud movie, was that the FBI seazed some
records/servers whatever while trying to get something they needed from a
company under investigation, and in doing so put 50 other companies out of
buisness. Sorry, don't believe that... It is an outrageous statement
really. If 50 companies were put out of business accidentally by the FBI,
it would have been national news for several news cycles... And I haven't
missed a half a dozen news cycles in the past decade. Don't remember it.
Unless, maybe the girl or writer was using the term very loosely to mean
"put out of business" for the time that their servers were confiscated/down
etc. This sounds more possible.... But either way, they must have been 50
very obscure, unimportant companies to have had even this much hassle from
the FBI accidentally.
I don't believe everything I hear anymore.... I think I may have at some
point in my much younger life. Especially, slick pieces like this, which
have the sound of an ifomercial for something or another, maybe Gartner
itself in this case. Who knows.
The idea of having no idea where your data is being stored even as to
country... That doesn't ring true either. I see there is a problem they are
describing here, but I think they have exaggerated the premises for the
problem a little.
The single most importatn idea that might impact any of us, is the fact that
if the FBI or any authority was to confiscate (bring down) a server that we
are paying to rol-locate our data/programs... And that server has *9other*
customers on it besides me, then yes, that could certainly be aproblem. I
think it's a matter of procedure though, not of jurusdiction. My web server
is leased at Verio. I have complete control of my virtual server, I can even
reboot it. But, I can not reboot the whole actual hardware server or anyone
else's virtual server. You would think the FBI could grab my entire data
space without affecting anything else, or anyone else. Admittedly, I'm not
working my web page in a cloud situation, but I'm certain that even huge
companies that run cloud based stuff like Amazon, eBay, etc., must run
through systems that keep *some* idea of how the data is being moved around
the cloud architecture. I mean these are computers we are taling about after
all... I bet someone knows where every chargeable clock cycle is and who is
to be billed. Don't you think so?
John
---------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 09:03:00 -0500
From: "Steve Parker" <sparker at abccompuserve.com>
Subject: RE: Cloud Computing security issues
To: <filepro-list at lists.celestial.com>
Message-ID: < ??? >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Not sure I'm doing this correctly, it is my first submission, but I'm
confident you will let me know if I have made a mistake anywhere! LOL!
I suppose "cloud computing" is here to stay, but I'm not so sure everyone is
going to continue to "buy into" all of their data being maintained in India
or Pakistan. Personally, I have a real problem with the security issues
implicit, not to mention support issues should I actually have to call
someone for help. I for one am really tired of "technical support" from
folks who, as the first level support one gets for Dell, for example, has a
hard time clearly communicating the crib sheet on the computer screen they
are reading!
But that aside, the first mistake I see in the above example is putting
trust in the likes of "Go Daddy". Having dealt with them before in a simple
inquiry (several people had referred me to them as an affordable source for
WEB hosting!) I can certainly understand why nothing they attempted to
support for you actually worked well. From my point of view, no chance that
it could.
I am working with a local ISP who specializes in critical data connectivity.
They provision and maintain T-1, T-3, PRI, etc. As another part of their
business, they provide WEB Hosting and email for their accounts, and through
resellers. They will also "rent" as WEB Server, co-locate equipment, and
much more.
I have not looked at all of the dollars involved in "co-location" but I have
looked at some numbers for "remote management". The service provider resells
their services to someone like most of us, offering an assortment of
software, tools and hardware that is monitored at their NOC. The reseller
gets a "management console" to log into, that provides access to all clients
and all of the various sites with information available for all equipment
being monitored.
Once again, I have a problem exposing myself and my clients to what are
mostly off-shore based facilities, run by who knows who.
The last two I've examined were looking great in price and service
offerings, until that last detail came up. So far, I've decided not to
participate! Locally, there is a company that does the same and more, but
their services ONLY fit for higher end clients with a minimum of say 25
computers. Once you get to that size, many companies (incorrectly, I think)
opt for in-house support, but these guys can be competitive with the
off-shore companies with "local" installation, maintenance and support, if
needed.
What I have NOT been able to find (I have a lead on one that I've had no
time lately to pursue) is such a company that has an offering for really
small companies with no minimum monthly charges for the reseller, and very
low minimum number of "devices" to be monitored. But I'm still looking, and
if I do not find it, I will take it on myself.
But there is another company locally that is in the process of launching a
product that offers an interesting array of services. They have the
equipment to do it, and can affordably host whole applications at their
site. The Customer gets a static IP (as I initially understand it) for each
virtual computer, so it can be accessed with an Internet connection using an
older system from virtually anywhere in the world.
Not sure what numbers you are looking at currently, nor exactly what you are
trying to accomplish, but it sounds like this might be an option. And you'd
actually have a physical address for your data, as well as technical
assistance for assistance based right here in the Cleveland, Ohio area. They
are currently offering this service for Churches, but are getting ready to
"reach out" very soon!
I like the Internet and the services it can provide, but I do not like the
"Global" concept of parking my data in "Bumf---" Eqypt!!
Just another voice.
Steve
> -----Original Message-----
> From: filepro-list-bounces+john=valar.com at lists.celestial.com
> [mailto:filepro-list-bounces+john=valar.com at lists.celestial.co
> m] On Behalf Of Richard Kreiss
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 1:51 PM
> To: filepro-list at lists.celestial.com
> Subject: OT: Cloud Computing security issues
>
> I am sure some of you have already seen this but thought for
> those that
> haven't, it would be enlightening
>
> Jurisdiction and the Cloud
> Moving data to the cloud could cause some law enforcement headaches.
>
> WATCH NOW:
> http://web.eweek.com/t?ctl=83752:0B3D0FD730F404920C4A677CD2F70E3E&
>
>
> Richard Kreiss
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Filepro-list mailing list
> Filepro-list at lists.celestial.com
> http://mailman.celestial.com/mailman/listinfo/filepro-list
>
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