FilePro Programmer Needed

[John Esak]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: filepro-list-bounces at lists.celestial.com
> [mailto:filepro-list-bounces at lists.celestial.com]On Behalf Of Fairlight
> Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 4:50 PM
> To: filePro Mailing List
> Subject: Re: FilePro Programmer Needed
>
>
> With neither thought nor caution, John Esak blurted:
> >
> > No, disagree again. Just saying VB ap says it all. If I saw someone post
> > that he had a "filePro" application that he wanted converted to
> something
> > else... I would not have to hear anything other than "filePRo
> application".
> > Either I know filePro or I don't. Going over what the app does
> and how it
> > does it is part of the either paid-for or on-speculation evaluation that
> > needs to be done before any contract is entered. Just knowing
> the source and
> > destination languages is enough to equip anyone to do this evaluation.
>
> I politely disagree.  There's a large difference between porting "Hello
> world" or a simple add/view of a flat listing by simple search criterion,
> and porting something like a multi-person (infinite users) scheduling
> calendar system with hooks into everything including web, email, and SMS,
> for example.  Doesn't matter if you know the languages in question.  It's
> the complexity of the task required combined with the stated deadline that
> are in question.  We knew one, but were given no clue about the other.
> That's the real problem, in my mind.


Well, I feel if you know the source and destination languages well enough,
you are equipped enough to call and get the details... *then* you can
argue/suggest/prove that the time frame desired is not  enough or anything
else for that matter. The specifics do not need to be in the job
announcement.

>
> BTW, if one -should- get paid for -looking- at something to eval whether
> or not they can do it, boy have I been getting screwed royally for over a
> decade.  I usually don't even have a committment on cent one until I can
> vouch I can do it.  Apparently I'm doing something -way- wrong! :)  I

Um, er, well sorry to bring you to the precipice of reality... but at no
time ever would I offer to do a job without an agreed-upon fee just for
looking at and considering the requirements. Never. Yes, you most certainly
have been getting screwed... but I think that you have been screwing
yourslef... simly by not setting such stipulations up front. Why in the
world would anyone or any company expect you to come to their place (at
least in m day) learn all that you need to about their requirements, and
provide an evaluation with quotes and estimate for nothing???  Sheesh, now
I've heard of everything. Srewed? I'll say. You are just giving away your
time and hard earned knowledge for ntohing... and blaming someone else for
it.. There is no analog I can think of that reflects your way of doing
things. Can you imagine a plumber coming out to give you a free estimate? A
doctor, an engineer, a lawyer, etc., etc. Who taught you business practices?


> thought the whole point of "quote" and "estimate" was to give them an idea
> of what they'd need.  And usually you eat that time.  I know if I take my

No, not ever. You should never eat that time... it is in my opinon the
*most* valuable time and effort you are providing the client. To not be
paid, and paid well for that time and evaluation is crazy.

> car into the shoppe, they'll eat time looking at it to diagnose it before
> giving me a quote, and I can take it or walk without it costing me
> anything.  Of course, the flip side of that is the medical profession,

Not in my nck of the woods. You pay for the evaluation, you decide whether
to take the advvice and service afterward. I suppose there are some places
that might do what you suggest around here, but they are the places that go
out of business regularly.

> where it's perfectly okay to have $7000 worth of tests run on you, have
> them find absolutely nothing they can even diagnose, and you end up paying
> anyway.  Apparently there are two approaches, and I'm not taking the one
> that would make me more money.

I don't understand the "other" approach with respect to
consulting/programming. If you are just "consulting"... then going somewhere
to give them an evaluation for nothing makes NO sense.... If you are
programming, why write one line of code without being paid... unless you are
doing it on speculation that a client will like it and "buy" it. If you are
doing both... then you are losing out twice.

> > much different way. Not hardly... and think again, do you
> really feel he is
> > going to read your response and re-submit his request? My guess is... he
> > won't even come back to this list to read any applications or
> messages of
> > any type. He mentioned contacting him directly, didn't he?
> Don't remember
>
> Which, as has been well stated before, is kind of a no-no.  I differ
> often with JPR (no, really?!), but he has made a valid point (IMHO) in
> the past--if you're going to be part of a community, then be part of
> it.  If you're going to ask in the forum, then expect the answers in the
> same forum.  I'm not a large believer in drive-by begging, personally.

NO, absolutely NO. Particulars about projects, client charges, costs, etc.
No way, competely wrong place a forum such as this. As for drive-by
begging... this charcterization does not aptly reflect at all the simple job
announcement this man was making. I saw no begging... it seemed perfectly
legitimate to me. And the final rebuke to this argument is that *generally*
and yes I'm using the term loosely as it is always used... the people
*needing* consulting/programming help from this forum of members are almost
never interested in the programming end of things themselves. Why in the
hell would they want to frequent this forum?  What earthly need does a
doctor have with learning or caring about filePro or Perl or web-stuff or
anything we do. He "drove-by" the list just to place his request... he not
ever come back because leaving phone/email routes for response is the much
preferred right thing to do. If he had wanted to beg a discussion on his
situation, he would have couched his message very differently don't you
think? (and I mean that lasst part rehtorically... :-) I know you think.

> It gets abused.  Past experiences omitted for sake of brevity.  Maybe
> whether or not someone is a pure "taker" should be part of that
> equation on
> whether or not you charge for eval for spec or not.  Charge those
> obviously
> driving by and trying to get help without giving anything back, do it
> as a professional courtesy for colleagues who stay and help others?  I
> dunno.  I'm not (at this point) willing to make any (more) moral
> or ethical
> assertions.

God! I hope not. My WHOLE point was that making ANY kind of
comment/assertions on his simple straight-forward post was the problem...
moral and ethical comments about it on top of that would REALLY be too much.
I mean come on, talk about blowing things out of proportion. The man left a
job announcement on the list... their is absolutley NO obligation on his
part to do anything else... or ever even come back here again for any
reason.


> If that person would care to publicly state their observation, I wouldn't
> mind at all.  I don't feel I'm at liberty to disclose it.  But
> it's someone
> I respect (and you do too, John), and you know that doesn't come easily.

I respect anyone's opinions on this or any other topic.  All I can do is
continue to state my reasoning for *my* viewpoint. Anyone is free to agree
or disagree in public or silently. I, too, got a private on this very
thread... it's why I responded to you in the first place... the guy who told
me about your comment is one of those that does not post here, but just
reads.

> > and again I ask why?  Is it because you agree with the definition of an
> > optimist? That being a pesimist who knows better? :-)
>
> Have you ever known me to be optimistic unless I knew the dice were loaded
> in my favour? :) :) You know I'm a pessimist!  And you're
> absolutely right,
> it's conjecture.  But it's also backed by past experiences.  If
> others have
> differing experiences that are positive, they should by all means share
> them.

Well, maybe they will.. but this has only ben a little diversion for me
while downloading big books from Audible and bookshare.org... It's hot out
and haven't much else to do... :-) I don't think I want to put much more up
about this.

Take care,

John