OT: [was]Re: ctrl-c - Electric Bass and Callouses...

[Keith' Weatherhead]

*VERY LONG, NOW * -kfw

Fairlight wrote:

> This public service announcement was brought to you by Keith' Weatherhead:
> 
>>Mark, you can post to the list if it doesn't fly there, as for 
>>awhile Bill's filters have prevent DirecWay.com users from sending 
>>to the list. -kfw
> 
> We'll see what Bill says about it.  Hopefully something.
> 
>>Well I will see your pain and raise you a couple of "tip" points...
> 
> I don't want more pain!!!!  :)
> 
>>I started playing violin at the age of 8, added guitar at the age of 
>>13 and added and made electric bass my main instrument at 15.  I 
>>still play a little guitar and play my bass whenever I can get away 
>>with it.  Now, on the north side of 50+, I have a couple friends 
>>that we get together for a jam session every couple of months as our 
>>schedules seem to be totally opposite no matter how hard we try to 
>>plan for a single Saturday or Sunday afternoon, even once a quarter.
> 
> That's been my problem...I only really get to the point of playing like a
> day or three in a row, every 3-4 months these days.  I can heartily say
> that starting off with Benatar's "Heartbreaker", Queensryche's "Operation:
> MindCrime", or -any- Ministry song is a wholly nuts idea...but I've done it
> anyway. :) Actually, I find the Cure's "Kiss Me" album is a good warmup.

Since I've played everything from Gospel (recorded 2 albums with a 
Gospel choir) to Heavy Metal (Power-Trio) one of my favorites as I 
like the freedom and the challenge of holding it together.  Not like 
being in a six-to-eight piece group (which I have also done) and 
only having to really provide a much smaller piece of the overall sound.

Warm-up material goes back to the basics - ALWAYS, scales forward 
and backward.  Work out patterns thru cycle-of-fourths and 
cycle-of-fifths (key changes) going both up and down, .i.e.

Run scales in the following keys, work out a sequence of notes that 
sound good to you as a bridge between one key and the other to make 
it flow continually...

Start in "C", go up to "F", up to "B-flat", up to "E-flat", etc.
Start in "C", go up to "G", up to "D", up to "A", etc.

You will eventually, 12 keys changes later be an octave up or down 
from your starting point, depending on whether you are cycling up or 
down by 4ths or 5ths.

It is dexterity, hand-position training, mind to hand (without 
watching !!), etc.  It will also help in developing solo structures, 
too.

> Last few times I had time and locale to play though, I went for the
> synth--less painful, and I've been putting off restringing the bass anyway,
> which it needs.  The synth is just "always ready".  I miss playing bass
> though, so I'll likely hit it next time.
> 
>>1. Water is your enemy !!   Hygiene is important and there are lots 
>>of Anti-Bacterial hand cleaners that are effective and can be used 
>>quickly for most situations without using water.  Showers are way 
>>better than baths... swimming is a choice between pain and comfort, too.
> 
> Er...not when you take hour-long showers.  (OCD...)  Boy, is that a glaring
> mistake.  Worse when you perspire easily and your hands get naturally damp.
> Owwwww.  I hate that.  And it happens until you get the callouses
> going--then that part seems to not perspire (prolly because it's really
> dead skin) and you're okay except around the edges.  Yeah, I know the water
> thing all too well.  Oh, and the -worst- is if you have even damp hands and
> manage to "play off" the callous you've put in a month or two building up.
> Arghhhhh!

Some players like different types of talc, personally I always 
thought is made my hand more gummy.  I guess you would have to try 
it, maybe only a little, lightly on your palms, but not fingers??
There are also sprays for your hands that are suppose to help, too, 
but I have never used any so I can't say if they work or not.

>>2. Go out to www.MuscianFriend.com  and invest in two (2) 
>>GripMasters (9.95 or 14.95 each) they come in three (3) tensions...
>>Extra Light, Light, Medium.  Unless you have a lot of hand strength 
>>and have been ACTIVELY playing, like gigging nitely start with the
>>"Light" and work your way to the Medium (medium should be labeled as 
>>"Tough" in reality !  I know, I made the mistake of starting there 
>>went I was on the road playing professionally figuring I was in 
>>great shape and I could just improve from there, not the smartest 
>>choice.
> 
> Hand strength isn't an issue at all for me.  Considering all the washing I
> do, and the pressure I apply when doing so, my hands constantly get a

This is kind of a misunderstood point.  Wrist and "individual" 
finger strength, not to mention dexterity are separate BUT related 
items when it comes to playing.  If you get and spend a little time 
with one of those GripMasters, it will become painfully obvious 
where your strengths and weaknesses are for playing... you don't 
believe me, order a Medium Tension GripMaster and let me know how it 
goes !!

> workout every day.  If anything, I over-play, actually.  Mind you I've no
> professional training at all...I'm a hobbyist.  But when watching videos of
> bassists, I notice that they hardly seem to pull the strings much.  My
> problem is that I -do- pull them...pretty hard.  I'm -guessing- 50%+

without seeing you play.. I would guess that 80%-90% of your problem 
is hand position!!   Check out your local Best Buy (or E-Bay) and 
see if they have a package called "Interactive Bass" by Playpro 
Software (www.playprosoft.com  - though I see the web site is down 
?) they have a "great" tutorial and the software runs on your PC, 
they include a 1/4" phono to 1/8" mini to go in to your sound card. 
  Has a built-in chromatic tuner and a series of lessons where you 
play against the PC and it matches the frequencies to determine if 
you are getting the lesson correct.  Covers many styles and 
techniques, I think the standard version is ~$59  and the deluxe 
version is around $89, which comes with two more CDs to play against 
and some more advanced techniques.  There is also a "Interactive 
Guitar" version for guitar players.

> harder.  The problem is that I've only got a pair of 40w amps, and my
> ancient bass has passive pickups.  Ergo, it's not very loud--or at least
> not as loud as I like it, although our upstairs neighbor disagrees.  :)
> It's maybe 1/3-1/2 as loud on the same amp as I can make the synth go on
> its -least- powerful outputs.  So I use the extra pull to get the volume
> out of it.  I have an intricate plan to minimise this soon though--I'm
> going to get an extra cable and feed the bass through the synth.  I will
> get a huge volume boost as well as be able to use the KDFX board to put on
> whatever effects I like, including "studios", echo, reverb, feedback...plus
> it will be on both amps instead of just one as I currently plug it into.

you can go to Radio Shack and buy a small pre-amp that runs off a 
9-volt battery and an AC adapter to get more punch and it would be 
cheaper than a new amp, the cable for your synth may be cheaper yet 
if that is all you have to do, but the pre-amp is another option. 
Not what you would want for gigging, but for jam and practice it 
would be just fine.

>>I later bought a Light especially since I no longer actively gigging 
>>and the medium wastes my hand in 3-5 minutes max.  For another (4.95 
>>or 9.95/set) add the Callous Tips for the GripMaster.  You can move 
>>them between the units but because I can be real lazy, at that price 
>>I bought two (2) sets and put them on both my Light and Medium Units.
> 
> Those look interesting though.  Don't need the exercise part, but the tips
> sound like a good idea.

Then again the exerciser part is both strength and dexterity...

> I play mostly pluck...say 90% of the time.  I -so- used to suck at pick,

That package "Interactive Bass" covers this nicely...

> but last year I sat down with one that I found I liked and actually put in
> several weeks of practise so that I was at least marginally competant with
> it.  It helps on some songs, actually.  And when I'm in the "breaking in"
> phase in the first three days or so, I'll switch to pick just to give the
> fingers on at least one hand a break.  Doesn't help the other hand, but I
> can live with that a lot more.  (At least on pluck, I only affect 2
> fingers, really...I don't use all four, but rather the first two, and the
> index finger takes the brunt of it until it hurts too much.)  The problem I

I don't ever think I used my picky on the pickin' hand, the ring 
finger only comes into play when you have a song where you are 
repeatedly striking the same note over-and-over to prevent cramping 
in the wrist by providing more motion spread out over the width of 
your hand.  Otherwise, both 1st and 2nd finger are used in any 
combination comfortable, either alternating, or individually and the 
thumb can be used for emphasis, even in a non-slap or funk style, 
plus that gives you a chance to completely move your wrist for 
comfort sake.

> have with pick is that, especially because I do give it extra pull even
> when using one, it can come off twangy by comparison.  It only suits
> certain tracks, usually--generally ones in 16th notes or faster, but the
> tonality is still off if I do it just wrong.  I'm just not a fan of pick,
> honestly.

Depending on the face of your bass, pickup mounting, if there is a 
pick guard (not too common these days) and how you feel about 
putting a couple small holes in your instrument...  what I did on 
many of my basses over the years... if they did not have a good 
casing structure around the pickups... I would get one of the hand 
rests like on the old fender jazz or precision basses and mount it 
above the strings, usually between the pickups and use it as a thumb 
rest.

I could mount it based on my hand size (very small for a bass 
player, just makes me work harder to obtain the results...). 
Requires two small screw holes, but unless you have an expensive 
instrument that you plan to get rid of and want maximum resale 
value, its comfort and it helps give you the correct hand position, 
allows you to relax some of the weight of your arm and in songs with 
extremely fast running lines, provides a way to adjust the stress on 
your wrist.

One other thought about mounting, never tried but it, would be 
temporary is to use a double face tape or glue pad.  If you watch 
what type of adhesive is used it should not effect the instrument's 
finish and would eliminate the screw holes.  Cost of the thumb post 
should be $2 or $3 bucks at most.  Go to a guitar shop that does 
work on instruments and you should be able to find one easily.

> I do have a method that works for slower songs.  I put my arm around the
> side and use my fingers a bit like hammers.  It's kind of like slap, but
> wayyyy out to the ends of the strings, far down at the part where they're
> fastened, and without the twang that's usually associated with slap up on
> the fretboard.  This sounds -really- good if attack isn't wanted or needed.
> It also gives a good break.  It has the same net effect as Tony Levin's
> "funky fingers" hammers that he wears on his two leading fingers.  (I still
> have NO idea how he can actually not be looking and know what he's hitting
> with his hand 6" removed from the actual strings.  He used those on Pink
> Floyd's "Sorrow" and I was impressed with the results, actually.  (A track
> whose bass is fun played on both bass and synth, actually...)

time, comfort with the instrument and the material (music).  Some is 
just individual ability, some people that desire to do things like 
this will never obtain it and others won't even have to practice 
hard to obtain.  This is one of the harder to digest things for a 
musician, no matter how good, there are times that listeners "hear 
with their eyes" (think about the phrase, it is not mistyped !!)

> My REAL secret to getting through the blister period more comfortably?  Use
> flat-wounds.  :)  I got some with my bass when I got it at a pawn shoppe,
> and later replaced them--but not after noticing how they felt a HECK of a
> lot better in this situation.  Sure, the sustain and brightness of attack
> aren't anywhere near as good as roundwounds (especially the sustain...it's
> got a horridly decay for some reason), but if you don't need to make your
> notes last 5 seconds, you'll be okay.  After you get to the callous stage,
> switch off to roundwounds and you won't even notice.  Which isn't to say
> you don't get -any- blistering, but it's a lot less painful, and it's
> more imposed by the stress of pulling rather than the added abrasion of the
> strings themselves.  That cuts the pain by a good 50% for the first few
> hours of every time you pick it up.  After 2-3 hours, you're hitting that
> pull stress where your skin is just plain not wanting anymore.  But it's
> still not also being abraded.

Those GripMaster Tips will go a long way here... you should be able 
to stay with Round-Wounds, the last time I used Flat-Wounds was in 
the Seventies ! ! !

> Ohyeah...another tip, and one that should be obvious to anyone except me,
> apparently--stay OFF from over the pickups if they're the older studded
> kind and if your action isn't set high.  I have no choice but to have the
> action low because they're passive pickups and I'd like to hear the darned
> thing.  But this runs me the risk of snagging the stud on the pickup.  Now,
> I prefer the tone and attack if I play right at that region as opposed to
> down at the bottom, and there's less pulling on the skin in the long run
> because the tension is less there and you don't have to pull as hard to get
> the same out of it.  But if you scrape those...OUCH!  I'll stay to one side
> or the other until I'm fully hardened.  Learned that the hard way.

Pickin' and Finger technique will let you play from actually over 
the top end of the fretboard to back at the very edge of the bridge. 
  If you attack the strings to hard vertically, YES, you will have 
problems.  If you can change the attack to Horizontal you will not 
be restricted in where you pick or finger the strings ! ! !

> Best move for me would be a new bass with active pickups.  But then I want
> a new amp, and the bass -WILL- be a 5-string next time because I'm bloody
> sick of having no low D, and by the time I get done I'll be in several
> grand.  Which is why it hasn't happened yet. :)  My wife wouldn't care, but
> it's kind of an expense for a hobbyist.  Still, one day...  Ohyeah, and
> much as I hate headless, I'll probably go for it for the Steinberger
> tuners.  I hate the look, but short of your strings going bad the tuners
> make it almost impossible to go out of tune.  I -loved- that about the Cort
> my best friend had when I played his.  Which means it'll be even more
> expensive.  *sigh*  :)

Very expensive hobby ! ! !  Especially if you like the really neat 
toys ! ! !

>>Side Note:  My Mother-in-Law had a stroke last August and I bought 
>>an Extra-Light one for her to use as a hand dexterity and strength 
>>exerciser for her recovery.  Works great !
> 
> 
> Sounds like it would.  As I said, when you wash your hands to the point
> where you get cramps in your muscles, hand strength is -really- not an
> issue.  :)  Even my pinky on the fretboard is stronger than I ever figured
> it would be--although I like to double the 3rd finger on it just to be

The GripMaster will help you correct that doubling problem again 
shear strength is NOT the object ! ! !

> sure.  (I'm not a chord player...it's just not something I'm interested in,
> and it's not my style.)

Chords and double-stops (used mainly in funk and OMG-disco) give you 
some interesting hand positions on the bass.  Also, stuff like older 
50's with octave walking patterns, Wilbur Harrison's "Kansas City" 
comes to mind immediately help with both pickin' and fingering cause 
you are playing over three of the strings (skipping the middle one) 
note-note octave up, note+1 (lower) and note+1 octave up and walking 
thru the 1-4-5 pattern.  Great exercise for warm-ups too.

>>When I do have some time at home to play my bass, I can at least 
>>enjoy it without having to quit 30 minutes later cause my finger 
>>were bleeding.

Actually only once, there use to be a club on the North Side of 
Chicago.  The bands played 8 sets started at 8PM-to-4AM 45 mins on, 
15 min break, 5-night week.  Worst gig I ever played, just because 
you felt like an amputation was the proper thing to be done at 5AM 
in the morning.  Fun club otherwise.

> Man, if you're bleeding from bass, you're doing something wrong! :( I've
> never had one bleed on me.  I've ripped off a callous or two (once due to
> wet hands), but it's never bled.  Even at the blister stage they don't
> bleed.  What speed metal -are- you playing?! :) :) :)

More a figure of speech, noting the above gig...

> If you can afford the sustain loss, try roundwounds.  I have a feeling that
> would help a lot.  It does for me.  I'm saving the link to those tips.  I
> may just take a look at those.

Then you simply use "raw-power" to compensate, much to other peoples 
annoyance, though...

> I'll just break for a couple hours and move to synth, then go back to bass
> later when I can take a bit more pain.
> 
> You said you play guitar as well...  That's what I don't get--how anyone
> could do a slide -without- a Steely Dan type slide bar and NOT have their
> fingers look like they've just had a nasty encounder with an old wire
> cheese slicer.  The G and above are simply unbearable for me for any
> sliding on a regular guitar.  Yet I've seen people do it.  FWIW, I rarely

String gauge has a lot to do with what your style desires to do... 
that's why there are Heavy, Medium, Light, Extra-Light and Bronzed 
and Steel sets of strings.  They allow for different kinds of 
playing styles, sound (tonal quality), effects and finger strength, etc.

> play guitar.  I can do a little lead, but not well, and only a very few
> tracks.  I actually am more likely to drag the solos down a few octaves and
> play them  on bass (Floyd's "Money" is incredibly fun that way).  But I
> just can't do guitar well for 2 reasons:  1) My fingers are "fat"...the
> string spacing just is not conduscive to this, although Gilmour has
> interesting tricks that make me think it's possible, and 2) I'm a lefty and
> play as such--but strung righty, so chords for me are next to impossible
> because they're all designed for proper string alignment.  This also makes
> proper slap bass very difficult to not miss and hit the other strings, but
> I rarely play that style anyway.

That is why there is left-handed strung instruments ! ! !
Not that Jimmy Hendrix let that bother him ! ! !

> And yet further OT, but you may know the answer and are certainly better
> trained than I and slides just brought it to mind:  When you watch players,
> they'll be at a certain point on the fretboard, let's say midway up or so,
> right?  Then you see them run their hand down to the end of the neck and
> back up to wherever.  No tension, no pressure, nothing.  There's no slide
> effect, no bending, nothing at all audible about what they do...they may
> even do it like twice in a row before hitting just that one next note.
> What he heck are they doing?  I mean, in most cases it looks like a 2-fret
> move and they're going all the way out and back in for some reason.  This
> has puzzled me for like 20 years now and I've never heard anyone explain
> it.  I keep wondering if it's some position-finding technique I've never
> been exposed to for lack of formal training.  I've seen it done on both
> bass and guitar--and even upright fretless, actually.

A number of things come to mind, not in any specific order though...
1.  "Remember the phrase "people hear with their eyes..."
2.  Do you ever try to produce harmonics?  Harder, but very doable 
on a bass, very easy on a guitar !!  Very "touch" sensitive.
3.  Sometimes you do things like that as part of your style and the 
"touch" that you have developed.

I'm not sure if this is a good computer related comparison though... 
think back to the older dot matrix printers... you would see them 
printing text in the middle of a line on the page (like a centered 
title), then print head would swing over to the side of the carriage 
and then come back to the center (to put the authors name) on the 
next line down.  The head swing was to re-position, align, etc. 
There were only spaces to get back to where the print head needed to 
be.  Later they refined the process to position the print head where 
it was needed to be and make it go bi-directionally without homing 
to the side of the carriage.

Some players develop that kind of positioning as part of their 
overall playing style.  There are a few things that I do that when I 
saw myself on tape, kind of surprised me as I didn't even realize 
that I was doing it, it just seemed normal to me.

*** Start of some exercises to try ***

Trying closing your eyes, relax, run your hand up and down the neck, 
slowly noting the curvature of the neck, many instruments today have 
a flat area in the center of the back of the neck, though not all, 
but there is a difference in the width, depth, and flatness of the 
neck that by feel you can learn EXACTLY where your hand is.  It 
takes some practice, put your hand in position to play with the 
index finger on the 5th fret (i.e. E String, "A" note). With your 
head turned AND your eyes closed (avoid any distractions for the 
brain) slide your hand up past the 12th fret (octave) and put it 
back where it was.
Now do the same think, only position your ring finger on the 5th 
fret, like you did with your index finger and repeat the exercise.

Now, put your index finger on the 8th fret (E Sting, "C" note) and 
slide down to the nut (by tuning heads) and come back to the 
position, again do the same thing with your ring finger.  Unless 
your fingers are 8" long you should be using the meat of the thumb 
as the centering pad on about the center of the back side of the 
neck.  You should feel the depth, and flatness of the neck of your 
instrument AND have a feel for the reach across to the "E" String.

Now go over to the "G" string and go back to the top of these 
exercises and do the same thing 5th and 8th frets, index and ring 
finger.  Now you will feel more the width of the neck as your thumb 
will be over at the opposite side of the neck, and if your 
flexibility is enough, able to play notes on the "E" string with 
your thumb on your fingerboard hand.

*** End of exercises, excepting note below ***

You will need to do the inner strings too, but when you get thru, 
you will find that you... can concentrate more on the music, styles 
of picking, and observing what is going on around you rather than 
having to look at your hands.  Now raising hands from the strings, 
thumping the body of the bass for effects all become fun things to 
do cause your fingerboard hand takes care of itself ! ! !

Thus ends "Bass Lessons-101" !

Keith
> mark->
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Keith F. Weatherhead                   keithw at ddltd.com

Discus Data, LTD                  Voice: (815) 237-8467
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