Antiquated Software

[John Esak]

Okay, I can only take so much... :-)  Seriously, Tony, I understand your
problems with filePro, but I'll intersperse some places where you are dead
wrong here...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: filepro-list-bounces at lists.celestial.com
> [mailto:filepro-list-bounces at lists.celestial.com]On Behalf Of Anthony
> Terrible
> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:44 PM
> To: Dennis Malen
> Cc: File Pro List
> Subject: Re: Antiquated Software
>
>
> While I respect everyone's opinion, I believe you are only
> fooling yourself.
> Our company may be a little different than yours and our phone
> personal need
> to access several different files at the same time. The only way
> to do this
> with Filepro is to get out of where your at and go into the other file.

This is completely wrong. Many/most of our people have multiple FacetWin
windows up at a time, each with different filePro applications and files in
them. Mary, I know has 4 up simultaneoulsy all day long, Lisa sometimes 5
and 6. (They happen to have 21" and 19" monitors respectively. Cutting and
pasting from window to window is no problem.

I myself run just window with Facetterm in place. I switch between windows
(also with full cut and paste if needed) at lightning speed. I have no
reason to "see" more than one app at one time... but I easily could have it
if I wanted it.

> There are many ways to do this but none of them are easy. And you only

No, wrong, there is nothing easy or hard about it. Mary se 4 to six filePro
windows simultaneously. Perhpas, you couuld work with more... but there is a
rule of diminishing returns for anything. Mary has what she needs without
problem.

> confirmed what I stated, you use several different programs to accomplish
> various tasks. Wouldn't it be nice not to have to do that? Is it
> as easy as
> a right click to email photo's to a customer? Can your managers make a
> report on the fly. You stated that you can run several reports
> simultaneously but can anyone else? Can you go to a screen of customer
> purchases and see all of their purchase's for the last 10 years and sort
> them by any field you want without running a report? Can you look
> at sales
> of a particular product over the last year and group them by state or zip
> code without running a report? I didn't think so. Oh and do it

Nope, you are quite wrong again here. We email/fax or print at the touch of
a button, no need to "right click". We see every invoice, line item,
po-item-code, bill-of-lading, order, specification, quote, picture... or a
myriad of other things at the touch of a single button also. In the cases
where these listings (and they are dynamic browses which also allow
modification on the fly, not just dumb lists) need to be sorted, this is
available simply by choosing the criteria you want. This functionality is
prevalent throughout our entire system.

> just as fast
> as an index selection? And if one of your managers wanted a
> report like that
> how long would it take you to prepare it? Because in Filepro he
> or she can
> not do it themselves. We also have the largest banks come in and audit us

Incorrect again, the fpSQL program certainly allows this with ease. We own
fpSQL but rarely use it. Our managers have need to see highly complex
reports which no SQL generate under any system I know. We help them build
what they need. Over time, these reports become more and more useful. For
the typical on-the-fly type report, there are hundreds of choices in their
reports menu that haven't failed us yet. Yes, when something new come up, we
modify or enhance one of these to fit the bill. Again, fpSQL would easily
fill-in on these rare occasions, if there wasn't any programmer around, the
users *could* actually do it themselves.

> but they have no idea if the data is skewed or not. They're just
> looking at
> numbers and as long as they match they're OK. We also hire young
> people and
> our experience is quite different. They have trouble finding anything let
> alone entering it. People that have been here for years have viewed and
> worked my system (same data truly Windows based) and are amazed
> how easy and
> simple it is compared to the Filepro system they have been using
> for years.
> (not fully completed or implemented yet) And wouldn't it be nice
> to have IF,
> THEN, ELSE, ELSEIF or how about a SELECT CASE or maybe a DO LOOP,

I'm sorry, I have *never* found a need for ELSE. If-then does it all without
problem. As for while-do loops. Agree, that would be very useful.




> Dynamic Arrays, the list goes on.  You can continue to live in the past
and be
> destined to be left out of the future. Technology continues to

Well, there is a new feature called REDIM which might do the dynamic array
thing... but again, if I were to agree with you on *all* the features
needed, it would not mean much. The point is that filePro can and will I
hope add the things it can add as that becomes possible. To date, we have
managed nicely without them. We will only do better with them.  I doubt very
much that our company will not have a place in the future. A couple hundred
families depend on it you see... :-)  By this I mean, I take great issue
with your doom and gloom prediction. We may have to work a little,
struggling to do our integrations with main stream programs... but we won't
go out of business over it. :-) (At least I certainly hope not... I just
bought a new car.)

> move forward
> and while all of it is not good, needed, or useful for everyone,
> Filepro is
> just too far behind. One of the best measures for success is to

I have often thought filePro was too far behind everything else. Until I cam
to the *full and complete* understanding that filePro *is* what it *is*... a
character-based, flat file, DBMS, fast-application-genator. It is not any of
the other things out there... and therefore is not falling behind anything.
It will *never* be any of those other things. When I *need* one of theose
other things, I will buy one. :-)  Jim Asman is always saying... filePro is
a good, reliable truck... if you need a boat that turns into a car and not a
truck... go buy one... don't try and make the truck into that other thing.
I think you have to be fair Tony. (We have to be fair). It's okay to bitch
about filePro not having some of the functions we've all been asking for all
these years.... I'm still in the camp that says, they can and will come. We
should not start belabouring filePro for all the reasons it is not like the
Windows GUi or the latest RDBMS from whoever. It's just not fair. Think of
how far filePro took you when none of those other things were near ready
enough to do it for you. What does it gain to bash filePro simply because
you've had to move on to bigger and better things. I realize you may be
unhappy that it couldn't be the end all software for you... I'm unhappy
about that a little, too... but that is a myth. I (we) got our use out of it
and much, much more. If it has outlived its usefulness for you, you must
think of it as the last super-duper, fastest, biggest server you bought. Why
did you buy it? Because the the one before it got outdated.... you can't buy
and end-all one-time purchase of a computer either. This is what you're
really saying, filePro is seriously outdated. Okay, for you, yes. For
others, no. We have a brand new DELL monster server in-house... so
unbelievably fast, newer and better in every way than our old one... but we
also have some computers in-house that are so old I would hate to tell you
what's in them. Each does what it needs to do. The analogy for filePro is
exactly the same. It will go on doing what it needs to do for us...
regardless of how we upgrade our databases, applications, etc. I can not
envision a time when filePro will be out of our company's future... doing
something, somehow... why? Because it is exactly the right tool for the job.
When that changes it will change, not before.  And, therefore, there NO
reason for me *not* to keep upgrading it just as I would upgrade any of the
other critical programs in our environment.

> be imitated.
> I don't see anyone out there imitating Filepro. When a better
> product comes
> along people will find it, seek it out. Linux is a perfect
> example of that.
> I don't see people seeking out Filepro.

No comment to any of this. I don't think it is as important as you do,
maybe.

Again, I apprecaite your feelings and overall unhappiness that filePro
didn't turn into Oracle... or even fileMakerPro... but those of us who will
continue to use it... will use it for what it is... probably until forever,
or whatever comes sooner. So, I hope you don't mind my defense of it as well
as my infrequent gripes.

John Esak




> From: "Dennis Malen" <dmalen at malen.com>
> To: "Anthony Terrible" <tony at vegena.net>; "File Pro List"
> <filepro-list at lists.celestial.com>; "Tips" <tips at stanlyn.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:41 AM
> Subject: Re: Antiquated Software
>
>
> > I'm been using filePro since the late 1970's. If it wasn't for Nancy I
> > would not have stayed with it in those early years.
> >
> > We hire young people who came from other firms using windows. When they
> > come to us, the training is much easier and we always get
> comments on how
> > simple it is to use. Furthermore, the largest bank's in the
> country come
> > on site to audit us. They also reconfirm the ease of use. They
> come from
> > banks that would never use filePro because it is virtually unknown. A
> > major bank can not take the risk to invest in an unknown product (but
> > that's a different problem).
> >
> > I have been able to do most of the things that the list
> complains about. I
> > do not use memos but use a 50 character line to enter comments.
> This works
> > well and I can scroll through hundreds if not thousands of
> comments. I am
> > also able to pass these comments to the outside world.
> >
> > I interact with the outside work by sending and receiving data with no
> > problem, which involves a little filePro programming. I am able
> to access
> > off the shelf software for imaging etc. which interacts seamlessly with
> > filePro. I can also use any type of windows printer on my system. That
> > only involves the tweaking of UNIX (AIX in my case). I can run many
> > different reports at the same time.
> >
> > Besides what Ken does, we need programmers like John and his
> pals to tweak
> > additional modules to do other things that the list wants. He
> started that
> > with the PIG.
> >
> > There are also outside vendors such as Sound Ideas. They have
> some great
> > utilities that work very well with filePro. Dave, the owner,
> was a filePro
> > user. Also many of the members of the list also sell products that
> > interact seamlessly with filePro. It is a matter of organizing
> the talent
> > we have and using it. For example, if we need a particular add on to
> > filePro which filePro does not have the resources to accomplish
> we should
> > find out how many of us would want it. We could put money in a
> kitty and
> > designate someone from the list with the talent to accomplish
> it to do it.
> > They would estimate what the development costs would be. They would own
> > the rights to the software. We would agree as to what they
> would sell it
> > to us for after it was completed. There is so much talent here it just
> > needs proper management.
> >
> > Absolutely, filepro has its place in my business coupled with other
> > programs we need. The only point that was mentioned that has
> validity for
> > me are size the screens.
> >
> > We need to think about ways things CAN be accomplished not why
> it can't.
> > It is always easy to point fingers and degrade a well meaning
> attempt to
> > solve problems.
> >
> > Viva La filePro.
> >
> > Dennis Malen
> > 516.479.5912
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Anthony Terrible" <tony at vegena.net>
> > To: "File Pro List" <filepro-list at lists.celestial.com>; "Tips"
> > <tips at stanlyn.com>
> > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 1:00 PM
> > Subject: Re: Antiquated Software
> >
> >
> >>I wasn't going to enter this flame although I have thought that
> Filepro is
> >>antiquated for some time now. So I am going to address some of
> the things
> >>that have been said and state my opinions. But before I begin
> let me state
> >>that  I have the utmost respect for all of you on this list and believe
> >>that all of you are better programmers than I.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 1)      Data entry in text mode (mouse less) is faster than a GUI or
> >> using a mouse.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> While I believe this to be true you can design Windows data
> entry forms
> >> very easily that can be used without a mouse just like a text based
> >> screen. The tab key works very well and the tab stop can be
> set any way
> >> you want.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 2)       Quoting Laura Brody, " I would bet cold-hard cash in a
> >> non-trivial amount
> >> that a top-level data-entry gal who has been at it since
> Eisenhower was
> >> president would have a drop of productivity of around 50% or
> more if she
> >> had to navigate through the exact same screen with a mouse on some GUI
> >> database."
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> While this is true, wake up Laura. The people entering data now are in
> >> their 20's and grew up with Windows and can navigate it quite
> easily, as
> >> well as that person using a text based system. Read  #1 above.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 3)      Quoting Bill Campbell, "I've never supported Windows, and
> >> seriously think that anybody who entrusts corporate assets and
> data to a
> >> Windows systems is guilty of malfeasance, and I refuse to be an
> >> accomplice to that. Even if Windows were secure, and no data were ever
> >> lost to software crashes or random reboots, the employee time
> lost due to
> >> these crashes and reboots, when reliable alternatives are available,
> >> isn't something that should be tolerated by anybody who is responsible
> >> for an organization's bottom line."
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I have been around Filepro for 20 years and the crashes from
> it, broken
> >> freechain, index corruption etc. is to me, no worse then
> Windows. However
> >> I do not promote a Windows based server. People today use PC's which I
> >> would venture to say are 99% Windows based. These machines have become
> >> very powerful over the years and people have become accustomed
> to using
> >> programs like Excel and Word. Use the power of the PC. Write
> you program
> >> to run on a Windows desktop but the database it's self can
> reside on Unix
> >> or Linux and be safe and secure while using that powerful PC.
> I believe
> >> anyone in this day and age who sells a client Filepro is guilty of
> >> malfeasance.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 4)      Quoting Ken Brody, "Umm...  Printing of memos has been
> in since
> >> 5.0.14.  Did you miss that?"
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> As John said, yes I guess we did. The memo field has never worked
> >> properly and I, and I assume that others have just given up on it.
> >> Compared to other databases the memo field is a bad joke, always has
> >> been. I embraced it when it came out but years later after
> working with
> >> it, well lets just say it's problems are too many to list.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 5)      For years I have listened to the list ask when is
> there going to
> >> be an ODBC driver for Filepro. The reason Filepro has never
> made an ODBC
> >> driver for Filepro is that they are very much aware that by doing this
> >> would be their death. If you could access the data stored in a Filepro
> >> file from any programming language why would you use Filepro? It would
> >> just be a matter of time before you totally get rid of
> Filepro. The only
> >> thing holding most people to Filepro is all the data they have in it's
> >> files that they can't get out without Filepro. Given the out,
> most would
> >> take the option. Filepro's file system is slow and clunky compared to
> >> modern data bases.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The world is changing. We need more data in many different
> formats then
> >> we ever did. People expect it, they demand it. We need
> pictures, email,
> >> internet access, the ability to open, view, modify  and run reports on
> >> several different files at the same time. This is just not
> possible with
> >> Filepro. It is however easily done with current day data bases
> running on
> >> PC's with Windows. What you have now with Filepro is a small
> ugly screen,
> >> long learning curve for new employees, no real ability to view or save
> >> photo's, little to no ability to create text documents, lots of clumsy
> >> menus, the lack of ability to be in several files at the same time,
> >> inability to access the internet, reports that look like they
> came off a
> >> 1950's typewriter, the inability for management to create their own
> >> reports, inability to sort or group data without running a
> report, slow
> >> and clunky searches unless you use an index selection, no integration
> >> with current technology. And programming? There is more to life then
> >> IF-THEN. Using Filepro or thinking that it has anything to
> offer is like
> >> the person who refuses to give up on that 1960's automobile.
> Automobiles
> >> have come a long way in 20 years, they are computer controlled
> in every
> >> aspect. They are faster then the cars of the 60's and 70's, get better
> >> gas mileage, don't pollute, safer, handle and drive better,
> last longer.
> >> So why would you want automobiles to go back to the way they were?
> >> Filepro was good when it was made but it's time is done, has
> been. Now is
> >> the time to figure out how to migrate from Filepro. Total
> integration is
> >> the way. With Windows this can be done. Your clients never
> have to learn
> >> anything else but your program  No more switching to a picture
> viewer, an
> >> email program, a writing program, a web browser. All of this is done
> >> seamlessly and easily. Menus, right clicks, real help files
> make it easy
> >> to use and learn, tabs make it easy to enter data. Use the
> power of the
> >> PC. It will make your company better, your people more productive.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Filepro-list mailing list
> >> Filepro-list at lists.celestial.com
> >> http://mailman.celestial.com/mailman/listinfo/filepro-list
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
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