Antiquated Software

Mon Jan 16 14:40:34 PST 2006

It is not so bad, every time I say it was written using filePro people seem
to hear FileMaker Pro and they are OK with it. 8-)

George Simon
American River Logistics, LTD
614 Progress St.
Elizabeth, NJ 07201

> -----Original Message-----
> From: filepro-list-bounces at lists.celestial.com [mailto:filepro-list-
> bounces at lists.celestial.com] On Behalf Of Dennis Malen
> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 4:59 PM
> To: Anthony Terrible
> Cc: File Pro List
> Subject: Re: Antiquated Software
> 
> "Your last point: Who knows, maybe the whole world is wrong and will
> regress
> back to Filepro in the coming years."
> 
> If filePro had the funds to advertise and let people know about it, then
> they probably would. The problem is that we don't see the name filepro out
> there and many users get scared especially when the software is to run
> their
> business. If I had never heard of filePro and had no experience with it, I
> would not use it either. I would be more comfortable with a name I
> recognized, although not necessarily better.
> 
> Dennis
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Anthony Terrible" <tony at vegena.net>
> To: "Dennis Malen" <dmalen at malen.com>
> Cc: "File Pro List" <filepro-list at lists.celestial.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 4:35 PM
> Subject: Re: Antiquated Software
> 
> 
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dennis Malen" <dmalen at malen.com>
> > To: "Anthony Terrible" <tony at vegena.net>
> > Cc: "File Pro List" <filepro-list at lists.celestial.com>
> > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 1:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: Antiquated Software
> >
> >
> >> You seem to be very emotional about down grading filePro. In any event,
> >   Not emotional just tired of jumping through hoops to get things done
> > when better products and tools are available. But then no more than you
> > about keeping something that is woefully outdated.
> >>
> >> 1. Yes we can go into another file by pressing one button.
> >       Yes we can do that too but when you show another file from being
> > within one you have to use dummies and most of the time some if not all
> of
> > the information needed is not availible because you can only show 1
> screen
> > of the other file which may need 3 to show everything. You can use
> system
> > calls to actually go to the other file so you can see all of the
> > information and we have done that also but the problem with that is your
> > users will get hung up in a loop and bring the whole system to it's
> knees.
> >>
> >> 2. Yes, the managers can create a report on the fly - that is the
> beauty
> >> of filePro.
> >  Hmmm, somehow I doubt this unless they are programmers and you have
> > development licensees for them and running from a command line.
> >>
> >> 3. Yes they can run several reports at the same time.
> >   Same as above.
> >>
> >> 4. Yes, they can review historical info going back 10 years - easy
> stuff
> >> for filepro.
> >   Can they sort it or group it? Don't think so. Oh yea, if they run a
> > report which is at best, slow.
> >
> >>
> >> Without getting into how you set your screens up and the logic you use,
> >> filepro does all those things and doesn't take up much room on my hard
> >> drive.
> >  Actually, I have converted all of my Filepro files to another modern
> data
> > base and they are smalleer then Filepro's
> >
> > There are many other things about Filepro that I haven't mentioned, like
> > if you use a dummy on a report that happens to be in the automatic table
> > it doesn't work as planed even if you explicitly don't use the automatic
> > table running the report.
> >
> > Basicly you are free to have your own opinions and to use what ever
> > program or programs you wish. I am glad you have such good luck with
> > Filepro and hope it serves you well in the future. I personally beleive
> > that Filepro's time has ended based on the new technology and on what
> your
> > customers and venders are doing. But in the end, it's your call. But as
> > many many companies found out standing in the way of progress usually
> gets
> > you run over. There is just much more out there then Filepro has to
> offer.
> > You have a different opinion. Who knows, maybe the whole world is wrong
> > and will regress back to Filepro in the coming years.
> >
> >>
> >> Dennis
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Anthony Terrible" <tony at vegena.net>
> >> To: "Dennis Malen" <dmalen at malen.com>
> >> Cc: "File Pro List" <filepro-list at lists.celestial.com>
> >> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:43 PM
> >> Subject: Re: Antiquated Software
> >>
> >>
> >>> While I respect everyone's opinion, I believe you are only fooling
> >>> yourself. Our company may be a little different than yours and our
> phone
> >>> personal need to access several different files at the same time. The
> >>> only way to do this with Filepro is to get out of where your at and go
> >>> into the other file. There are many ways to do this but none of them
> are
> >>> easy. And you only confirmed what I stated, you use several different
> >>> programs to accomplish various tasks. Wouldn't it be nice not to have
> to
> >>> do that? Is it as easy as a right click to email photo's to a
> customer?
> >>> Can your managers make a report on the fly. You stated that you can
> run
> >>> several reports simultaneously but can anyone else? Can you go to a
> >>> screen of customer purchases and see all of their purchase's for the
> >>> last 10 years and sort them by any field you want without running a
> >>> report? Can you look at sales of a particular product over the last
> year
> >>> and group them by state or zip code without running a report? I didn't
> >>> think so. Oh and do it just as fast as an index selection? And if one
> of
> >>> your managers wanted a report like that how long would it take you to
> >>> prepare it? Because in Filepro he or she can not do it themselves. We
> >>> also have the largest banks come in and audit us but they have no idea
> >>> if the data is skewed or not. They're just looking at numbers and as
> >>> long as they match they're OK. We also hire young people and our
> >>> experience is quite different. They have trouble finding anything let
> >>> alone entering it. People that have been here for years have viewed
> and
> >>> worked my system (same data truly Windows based) and are amazed how
> easy
> >>> and simple it is compared to the Filepro system they have been using
> for
> >>> years. (not fully completed or implemented yet) And wouldn't it be
> nice
> >>> to have IF, THEN, ELSE, ELSEIF or how about a SELECT CASE or maybe a
> DO
> >>> LOOP, Dynamic Arrays, the list goes on.  You can continue to live in
> the
> >>> past and be destined to be left out of the future. Technology
> continues
> >>> to move forward and while all of it is not good, needed, or useful for
> >>> everyone, Filepro is just too far behind. One of the best measures for
> >>> success is to be imitated. I don't see anyone out there imitating
> >>> Filepro. When a better product comes along people will find it, seek
> it
> >>> out. Linux is a perfect example of that. I don't see people seeking
> out
> >>> Filepro.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Dennis Malen" <dmalen at malen.com>
> >>> To: "Anthony Terrible" <tony at vegena.net>; "File Pro List"
> >>> <filepro-list at lists.celestial.com>; "Tips" <tips at stanlyn.com>
> >>> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:41 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: Antiquated Software
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> I'm been using filePro since the late 1970's. If it wasn't for Nancy
> I
> >>>> would not have stayed with it in those early years.
> >>>>
> >>>> We hire young people who came from other firms using windows. When
> they
> >>>> come to us, the training is much easier and we always get comments on
> >>>> how simple it is to use. Furthermore, the largest bank's in the
> country
> >>>> come on site to audit us. They also reconfirm the ease of use. They
> >>>> come from banks that would never use filePro because it is virtually
> >>>> unknown. A major bank can not take the risk to invest in an unknown
> >>>> product (but that's a different problem).
> >>>>
> >>>> I have been able to do most of the things that the list complains
> >>>> about. I do not use memos but use a 50 character line to enter
> >>>> comments. This works well and I can scroll through hundreds if not
> >>>> thousands of comments. I am also able to pass these comments to the
> >>>> outside world.
> >>>>
> >>>> I interact with the outside work by sending and receiving data with
> no
> >>>> problem, which involves a little filePro programming. I am able to
> >>>> access off the shelf software for imaging etc. which interacts
> >>>> seamlessly with filePro. I can also use any type of windows printer
> on
> >>>> my system. That only involves the tweaking of UNIX (AIX in my case).
> I
> >>>> can run many different reports at the same time.
> >>>>
> >>>> Besides what Ken does, we need programmers like John and his pals to
> >>>> tweak additional modules to do other things that the list wants. He
> >>>> started that with the PIG.
> >>>>
> >>>> There are also outside vendors such as Sound Ideas. They have some
> >>>> great utilities that work very well with filePro. Dave, the owner,
> was
> >>>> a filePro user. Also many of the members of the list also sell
> products
> >>>> that interact seamlessly with filePro. It is a matter of organizing
> the
> >>>> talent we have and using it. For example, if we need a particular add
> >>>> on to filePro which filePro does not have the resources to accomplish
> >>>> we should find out how many of us would want it. We could put money
> in
> >>>> a kitty and designate someone from the list with the talent to
> >>>> accomplish it to do it. They would estimate what the development
> costs
> >>>> would be. They would own the rights to the software. We would agree
> as
> >>>> to what they would sell it to us for after it was completed. There is
> >>>> so much talent here it just needs proper management.
> >>>>
> >>>> Absolutely, filepro has its place in my business coupled with other
> >>>> programs we need. The only point that was mentioned that has validity
> >>>> for me are size the screens.
> >>>>
> >>>> We need to think about ways things CAN be accomplished not why it
> >>>> can't. It is always easy to point fingers and degrade a well meaning
> >>>> attempt to solve problems.
> >>>>
> >>>> Viva La filePro.
> >>>>
> >>>> Dennis Malen
> >>>> 516.479.5912
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Anthony Terrible" <tony at vegena.net>
> >>>> To: "File Pro List" <filepro-list at lists.celestial.com>; "Tips"
> >>>> <tips at stanlyn.com>
> >>>> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 1:00 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: Antiquated Software
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I wasn't going to enter this flame although I have thought that
> Filepro
> >>>>>is antiquated for some time now. So I am going to address some of the
> >>>>>things that have been said and state my opinions. But before I begin
> >>>>>let me state that  I have the utmost respect for all of you on this
> >>>>>list and believe that all of you are better programmers than I.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1)      Data entry in text mode (mouse less) is faster than a GUI or
> >>>>> using a mouse.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> While I believe this to be true you can design Windows data entry
> >>>>> forms very easily that can be used without a mouse just like a text
> >>>>> based screen. The tab key works very well and the tab stop can be
> set
> >>>>> any way you want.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2)       Quoting Laura Brody, " I would bet cold-hard cash in a
> >>>>> non-trivial amount
> >>>>> that a top-level data-entry gal who has been at it since Eisenhower
> >>>>> was president would have a drop of productivity of around 50% or
> more
> >>>>> if she had to navigate through the exact same screen with a mouse on
> >>>>> some GUI database."
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> While this is true, wake up Laura. The people entering data now are
> in
> >>>>> their 20's and grew up with Windows and can navigate it quite
> easily,
> >>>>> as well as that person using a text based system. Read  #1 above.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 3)      Quoting Bill Campbell, "I've never supported Windows, and
> >>>>> seriously think that anybody who entrusts corporate assets and data
> to
> >>>>> a Windows systems is guilty of malfeasance, and I refuse to be an
> >>>>> accomplice to that. Even if Windows were secure, and no data were
> ever
> >>>>> lost to software crashes or random reboots, the employee time lost
> due
> >>>>> to these crashes and reboots, when reliable alternatives are
> >>>>> available, isn't something that should be tolerated by anybody who
> is
> >>>>> responsible for an organization's bottom line."
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have been around Filepro for 20 years and the crashes from it,
> >>>>> broken freechain, index corruption etc. is to me, no worse then
> >>>>> Windows. However I do not promote a Windows based server. People
> today
> >>>>> use PC's which I would venture to say are 99% Windows based. These
> >>>>> machines have become very powerful over the years and people have
> >>>>> become accustomed to using programs like Excel and Word. Use the
> power
> >>>>> of the PC. Write you program to run on a Windows desktop but the
> >>>>> database it's self can reside on Unix or Linux and be safe and
> secure
> >>>>> while using that powerful PC. I believe anyone in this day and age
> who
> >>>>> sells a client Filepro is guilty of malfeasance.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4)      Quoting Ken Brody, "Umm...  Printing of memos has been in
> >>>>> since 5.0.14.  Did you miss that?"
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As John said, yes I guess we did. The memo field has never worked
> >>>>> properly and I, and I assume that others have just given up on it.
> >>>>> Compared to other databases the memo field is a bad joke, always has
> >>>>> been. I embraced it when it came out but years later after working
> >>>>> with it, well lets just say it's problems are too many to list.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 5)      For years I have listened to the list ask when is there
> going
> >>>>> to be an ODBC driver for Filepro. The reason Filepro has never made
> an
> >>>>> ODBC driver for Filepro is that they are very much aware that by
> doing
> >>>>> this would be their death. If you could access the data stored in a
> >>>>> Filepro file from any programming language why would you use
> Filepro?
> >>>>> It would just be a matter of time before you totally get rid of
> >>>>> Filepro. The only thing holding most people to Filepro is all the
> data
> >>>>> they have in it's files that they can't get out without Filepro.
> Given
> >>>>> the out, most would take the option. Filepro's file system is slow
> and
> >>>>> clunky compared to modern data bases.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The world is changing. We need more data in many different formats
> >>>>> then we ever did. People expect it, they demand it. We need
> pictures,
> >>>>> email, internet access, the ability to open, view, modify  and run
> >>>>> reports on several different files at the same time. This is just
> not
> >>>>> possible with Filepro. It is however easily done with current day
> data
> >>>>> bases running on PC's with Windows. What you have now with Filepro
> is
> >>>>> a small ugly screen, long learning curve for new employees, no real
> >>>>> ability to view or save photo's, little to no ability to create text
> >>>>> documents, lots of clumsy menus, the lack of ability to be in
> several
> >>>>> files at the same time, inability to access the internet, reports
> that
> >>>>> look like they came off a 1950's typewriter, the inability for
> >>>>> management to create their own reports, inability to sort or group
> >>>>> data without running a report, slow and clunky searches unless you
> use
> >>>>> an index selection, no integration with current technology. And
> >>>>> programming? There is more to life then IF-THEN. Using Filepro or
> >>>>> thinking that it has anything to offer is like the person who
> refuses
> >>>>> to give up on that 1960's automobile. Automobiles have come a long
> way
> >>>>> in 20 years, they are computer controlled in every aspect. They are
> >>>>> faster then the cars of the 60's and 70's, get better gas mileage,
> >>>>> don't pollute, safer, handle and drive better, last longer. So why
> >>>>> would you want automobiles to go back to the way they were? Filepro
> >>>>> was good when it was made but it's time is done, has been. Now is
> the
> >>>>> time to figure out how to migrate from Filepro. Total integration is
> >>>>> the way. With Windows this can be done. Your clients never have to
> >>>>> learn anything else but your program No more switching to a picture
> >>>>> viewer, an email program, a writing program, a web browser. All of
> >>>>> this is done seamlessly and easily. Menus, right clicks, real help
> >>>>> files make it easy to use and learn, tabs make it easy to enter
> data.
> >>>>> Use the power of the PC. It will make your company better, your
> people
> >>>>> more productive.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Filepro-list mailing list
> >>>>> Filepro-list at lists.celestial.com
> >>>>> http://mailman.celestial.com/mailman/listinfo/filepro-list
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Filepro-list mailing list
> Filepro-list at lists.celestial.com
> http://mailman.celestial.com/mailman/listinfo/filepro-list