Etiquette (was Re: left justify)

Sat Jun 11 19:21:10 PDT 2005

Against my principals I'm going to top post for the sake of brevity.

I agree with what both Mark and Jeff have said in this thread.

I abhor requests for help or info that do not contain enough info
for others to give any help or info.

These I pass on, as we all should (teach 'em a lesson).

'nuff said.

Bob

Mark Luljak wrote (on Sat, Jun 11, 2005 at 08:30:57PM -0400):

| >From inside the gravity well of a singularity, Jeff Harrison shouted:
| > 
| > It is amusing, although not unexpected at all, that
| > you agreed with my #1 and George agreed with my #2.  
| 
| True.  Anecdotal evidence would lend itself to predicting just that.
| 
| > I know it was not much of a flame for you - perhaps a
| > coffee warmer as you say, but rude nonetheless.  My
| > point was of course that #1 and #2 are both rude.
| 
| Please tell me--which is more rude...the explosion, or the idiot that mixed
| volatile base and acid in large quantities?  Personally, I don't think you
| blame the effect--you blame the cause.
| 
| The difference being that your #2 is a reaction to #1.  If #1 is not
| presented, then #2 will never come into existence by virtue of catalytic
| reaction.
| 
| IOW, it comes down to the old saw about telling the doctor, "It hurts when
| I do this." 
| 
| "Then DON'T DO THAT!"  :)
| 
| There's a large difference between instigation and reaction.  Don't give
| someone something negative to react to, you won't get a negative reaction
| unless the reacting party is pretty unreasonable.  By and large, believe
| it or not, I'm a pretty reasonable guy.  I see a lot of negative things to
| react to, unfortunately.  And lately, the incidence rate has been on the
| rise.  Almost daily, I find myself contemplating Ripley's line, "Did IQ's
| just -drop- sharply while I was away?"
| 
| > You are probably correct that being polite to such a
| > poster will not prevent the unnecessarily long thread
| > that will likely ensue.  However, neither will being
| > rude.  
| 
| There's the chain of logic that says that by coddling people in their own
| rudeness from point #1, you only enable them and propogate the problem; if
| you cut it short (even if you have to be rude in doing so to drive home the
| point), you eventually stop #1 from appearing, thereby stopping #2 from
| ever becoming an issue, since it's a reaction to #1 in the first place.
| 
| That's my thinking on it, anyway.
| 
| > This list is a really great resource for people, but I
| > know that there are many people that are hesitant to
| > post because they fear that they will get flamed or at
| > least have their "coffee warmed".  If our goal is to
| > help people - and that is my goal at least - then I
| > believe that we should try to be little more civil.  
| 
| It's -always- been my take that if someone is too timid to venture forth a
| post because of what other people might think, their problems extend far
| beyond the immediate technical issues at hand.  Our ultra-PC society has
| eroded away the thick skins we developed after a few thousand years of
| developing them.  Nowadays, uttering a simple, "No," is considered abusive,
| offensive, rude, and possibly obscene.  It's all gone too far.  People can
| feel free to try to judge me by those inane standards, but I refute the
| extent to which they've been carried and extended, and the validity of any
| such judgement.  I don't buy into this touchy-feely hyper-sensitive culture
| we're continuing to develop still further each day.  What we've done is
| create a bunch of excuses for whining.  The world already had enough
| legitimate reasons before we created artificial ones.  I mean, really,
| if someone getting "flamed" (or even "warmed") is their main concern,
| they ought to know what -real- problems are.  This is only a quarter-step
| above people whining about how hard the 'game' is on Survivor--hell,
| they volunteered, idiots!  Maybe they should visit some of the truly
| unfortunate--the homeless, the crippled, the diseased--and converse with
| them about the -real- injustices of life before prattling on about how
| they've been mistreated so grossly.
| 
| I mean, what's next?  How about interpersonal therapy as a sideband on the
| consulting aspect?  "Mmmmm.  Yes.  I see.  And how do you -feel- about
| this particular bug?  What emotions does it evoke?  Tell me about your
| mother..."  If we coddle them just a little more, we may as well just pack
| it in now, because it'll never end.  We'll need PhD's and AMA licenses for
| psychology to do computer consulting before too long at this rate.
| 
| I maintain:  Cessation of #1 will prevent #2 from occurring, by and large,
| since #2 is a reaction to #1.  
| 
| The shorthand, plain-English for this is, "If you don't like the
| consequences, don't do something wrong in the first place."
| 
| > Good Job on that form.  I hope that people will use it!
| 
| Thanks.  And we can hope.  It's not even so much the form, as I said.
| It's just that the information should be there, up-front.  From a
| time-management standpoint, everyone would win.  We'd have time to answer
| more questions, or more free time to move on to other things individually
| when everything's been solved.  It's simply more effective.  Heck, I'm one
| of the -least- business-inclined in the 'professional' sense around here,
| since I don't buy into most of the nonsensical buzzwords and all that rot
| that means you're a qualified stuffed suit, but time management is just
| common sense use of resources.  It doesn't take a high school graduate
| (or even a well-informed grade-school student) to see that presenting a
| problem without elucidating it clearly is a waste of time and effort for
| all involved.  Which doesn't speak very highly of the people not bothering
| to do so, does it?  I make no apologies for the example--they exhibit
| the symptoms, they get the diagnosis.  If it's unflattering, it's not my
| fault, nor my problem.
| 
| But solving this won't happen so long as even a few people are enabling
| the behaviour in #1, and letting those that do so get away with it.  That,
| or it will work for the majority that stick to their guns, and those that
| don't will bear the brunt of the abuse of their own overly good nature.
| 
| If we, as a group, stop even acknowledging and accepting incomplete,
| incoherrent, and even worse, contradictory reports and questions on the
| whole, people asking things in such a fashion might take a hint.  Perhaps
| you're right--you don't need to be rude, you just need an infinite amount
| of silence.  Then, when they wonder aloud why their questions have not been
| met with answers, simply point to the big 144pt sign on the wall that has
| the guidelines for reasonable reporting, and let it go at that--refusing to
| answer until they comply with reasonable methods.
| 
| Some might argue this would make the list less of a resource.  I feel it
| would have just the opposite effect.  We'd get more done with less time
| and effort, and the rudeness (real or perceived) from #2 should disappear
| pretty much completely, aside from a Cranky Day here or there, which anyone
| has once in a while but could be excused as a rare aberration when the
| behaviour wasn't triggered by constant iteration of #1.
| 
| The sad thing is--if #1 was being addressed properly, we wouldn't even
| be having this discussion.  There'd have been nothing for me to even
| contemplate saying in the first place the other day, no reaction to that
| from you or others, and no further reaction from me.  It all started
| because someone wasn't clued enough to give all the information--and
| persistantly isn't--, and lest they feel singled out, is also amongst a
| fair amount of equally non-clued company in not doing so.  Hence:  Snowball
| effect.  I can hope for the opposite, but probably 5-10 people will chime
| in to crucify me for daring to react to a lack of common sense from other
| parties before this is all said and done.  All because there -was- a lack
| of common sense to begin with--and it wasn't on my part.  Such is the
| nature of such things.
| 
| So yeah, one can hope.  I know -I'm- tired of dealing with it.  Not only
| dealing with it, but seeing others have to deal with it.  It's unreasonable
| of the imposing parties.  If the purported "flamed" of the group would wise
| up to the fact that they're creating their own problems (and problems for
| others, which is still more rude), we'd probably be all set, IMHO.
| 
| All seems like Common Sense 101 to me.
| 
| Enough 'heavy' thinking.  It's the weekend, and I aim to enjoy what's left
| of it, God willing.
| 
| Bests,
| 
| mark->
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